Against Glycogen Repletion...

What I find interesting about this thread is the fact that evolution keeps on being brought up and how long it takes the human state to alter.

Humans are the most adaptable of all species, but also have the ability to alter our environment, so in effect we dictate our own evolution.

I can safely say that following any prolonged physical activity carbs are required. I would further state that we need far fewer carbs than previously thought and a high protein diet for sportsman is optimal in my experience.

I don't believe that the benefits of increased Growth Hormone output outweighs the needs of the body to replenish glycogen, but this thread is very interesting.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

KP...Unfortunately, protein - like carbs - will illicit a pretty big insulin response whereas fat does not. [Meathead and I have exchanged PMs on this topic and there seems to be a lack of clear studies on macronutrient effects on insulin response in isolation from each other!]. However, I still believe fat has the least effect. When it comes to glycogen repletion, you have to ask yourself a number of questions:

How quickly do i really have to replace lost glycogen?
Have I really totally depleted my muscle glycogen stores?
Is immediate carb intake to replete glycogen stalling the protein synthesis necessary for repair and growth?
Am I just repleting glycogen for its own sake and doing nothing for the overall recovery/repair/growth process?

When it comes to replacing carbs with fat - rather than extra protein - in the diet the question often becomes one of having sufficient energy to train intensely. Unfortunately, save for those that have done it properly, most people find that dabbling in various half-way house approaches [like TKD, anabolic diet, etc.] have variable results to say the least. This is because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole process of ketogenesis and utilizing fat in general for energy. There is a lengthy adaption process to go through before you will benefit. If you change horses mid-stream by going back to carbs [carb-ups, carb-loading, PWO glycogen replenishment] you interrupt this process and have to start from scratch!

The most obvious of these is the time allotted (or not) for keto-adaptation. In this context, the prescient observation of Schwatka (that adaptation to "a diet of reindeer meat" takes 2–3 weeks) says it all. None of the comparative low-carbohydrate versus high-carbohydrate studies done in support of the carbohydrate loading hypothesis sustained the low carbohydrate diet for more than 2 weeks [5], and most (including the classic report of Christensen and Hansen [2]) maintained their low-carbohydrate diets for 7 days or less.

There are to date no studies that carefully examine the optimum length of this keto-adapataion period, but it is clearly longer than one week and likely well advanced within 3–4 weeks. The process does not appear to happen any faster in highly trained athletes than in overweight or untrained individuals. This adaptation process also appears to require consistent adherence to carbohydrate restriction, as people who intermittently consume carbohydrates while attempting a ketogenic diet report subjectively reduced exercise tolerance.

http://nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Originally Posted by simon m

What I find interesting about this thread is the fact that evolution keeps on being brought up and how long it takes the human state to alter.

Humans are the most adaptable of all species, but also have the ability to alter our environment, so in effect we dictate our own evolution.

Yes, but at a v-e-r-y s-l-o-w pace! Being adaptable as an individual human being and adaptations in the human species are two very different things with a great many millennia between them!

Originally Posted by NU_nutrition_TS

Yes, but at a v-e-r-y s-l-o-w pace! Being adaptable as an individual human being and adaptations in the human species are two very different things with a great many millennia between them!

Is it possible to gauge the speed of evolution? If so, can you tell which era adapted fastest?

Also, as travel is no longer a barrier, surely geographical evolutionary traits for humans are fast disappearing. I read somewhere that Brazil with it's varied genetic mix looks more like out future than anywhere else in the world and that in a few hundred years blond hair and blue eyes with be rarer than a hen's tooth!

Originally Posted by NU_nutrition_TS

KP...Unfortunately, protein - like carbs - will illicit a pretty big insulin response whereas fat does not. [Meathead and I have exchanged PMs on this topic and there seems to be a lack of clear studies on macronutrient effects on insulin response in isolation from each other!]. However, I still believe fat has the least effect. When it comes to glycogen repletion, you have to ask yourself a number of questions:

How quickly do i really have to replace lost glycogen?
Have I really totally depleted my muscle glycogen stores?
Is immediate carb intake to replete glycogen stalling the protein synthesis necessary for repair and growth?
Am I just repleting glycogen for its own sake and doing nothing for the overall recovery/repair/growth process?

When it comes to replacing carbs with fat - rather than extra protein - in the diet the question often becomes one of having sufficient energy to train intensely. Unfortunately, save for those that have done it properly, most people find that dabbling in various half-way house approaches [like TKD, anabolic diet, etc.] have variable results to say the least. This is because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole process of ketogenesis and utilizing fat in general for energy. There is a lengthy adaption process to go through before you will benefit. If you change horses mid-stream by going back to carbs [carb-ups, carb-loading, PWO glycogen replenishment] you interrupt this process and have to start from scratch!


http://nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

Nu

Now this is where it gets interesting.

Glucogenisis : When does this occur? We are led to beleive that it occurs when the body is trying to break the equilibrium from using fats or carbs as its source of major functions within the body....normally the shift occurs when the change has been put into effect whereby 40% of cals are from fat.

Now, ive taken around 25 days of BG when Ive just consumed WPC 60gms first thing in morning....and I def have not got a rise or spike more then 0.2 movement of the BG meter. Ive done this throughout the day...where my main source of cals were from WPC and Olive Oil.....

I hear what you are saying about the tkd, ckd etc...but one thing that we all fail to remeber here is that whilst making the switch longer term from carbs to fats we do also introduce other challenges, down reg throid, leptin levels, to name a few. But thats another story....

In terms of your questions....

How quickly do i really have to replace lost glycogen?
Have I really totally depleted my muscle glycogen stores?
Is immediate carb intake to replete glycogen stalling the protein synthesis necessary for repair and growth?
Am I just repleting glycogen for its own sake and doing nothing for the overall recovery/repair/growth process?

Its difficult to conclusively answer these without cutting open the muscle tissue and analysing....which I know some studies have done; albeit in rats.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Originally Posted by simon m

Is it possible to gauge the speed of evolution? If so, can you tell which era adapted fastest?

Also, as travel is no longer a barrier, surely geographical evolutionary traits for humans are fast disappearing. I read somewhere that Brazil with it's varied genetic mix looks more like out future than anywhere else in the world and that in a few hundred years blond hair and blue eyes with be rarer than a hen's tooth!

It's difficult to explain but all of these genes are there and have been for millennia [hence we have not really evolved that much]. Environmental factors determine which of those genes are expressed and/or passed on from generation to generation but, aside from obvious surface traits like hair/eye colour, it will still take many generations to become rooted in a large population let alone the human race as a whole.

[sendos]

Simon M, do we even know if we have evolved geneticaly that much? We've certainly evolved culturaly and techonlogicaly. But genetically are we not the same. I think thats the basis of Art De Vaney's theorys in the first post. that we are genetically indistinguisable from our ancestors.

Originally Posted by sendos

Simon M, do we even know if we have evolved geneticaly that much? We've certainly evolved culturaly and techonlogicaly. But genetically are we not the same. I think thats the basis of Art De Vaney's theorys in the first post. that we are genetically indistinguisable from our ancestors.

Maybe deserves an off topic thread?

[sendos]

lol yeah good point + we could argue and argue and never change anyones mind on subjectslike this.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Originally Posted by kp1512

Nu

Now this is where it gets interesting.

Glucogenisis : When does this occur? We are led to beleive that it occurs when the body is trying to break the equilibrium from using fats or carbs as its source of major functions within the body....normally the shift occurs when the change has been put into effect whereby 40% of cals are from fat.

Now, ive taken around 25 days of BG when Ive just consumed WPC 60gms first thing in morning....and I def have not got a rise or spike more then 0.2 movement of the BG meter. Ive done this throughout the day...where my main source of cals were from WPC and Olive Oil.....

After an overnight fast, gluconeogenesis will account for around 50% of glucose production. After 42 hours it is nearer 100% for healthy individuals.

However, if we are talking metabolic shifts on a high-fat or ketogenic diet, we are not really talking about gluconeogenesis but the ability of the mitochondria to 'burn' substrates derived from fat as opposed to glucose. This 'spares' glucose for those cells that absolutely MUST have it which, in turn, means we can consume less carbohydrate without impairing our wellbeing or energy status.

As to the second paragraph, don't forget with protein we are talking about spiking insulin not increasing blood glucose levels! Amino acids can cause insulin spikes independant of any rise in blood glucose. If you are insulin resistant, you need to minimise insulin's assault on your body in order to increase its sensitivity to smaller amounts of insulin. That is why I prefer my diet to be high in fat, moderate in protein and low in carbs. It's all about controlling insulin levels as well as keeping blood glucose stable. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to determine insulin levels outside of a lab performed blood test via your GP! You could use a BG meter to determine your level of insulin sensitivity, I suppose, by taking a reading after an overnight fast, then consuming a measure of high GI carbs and taking further readings, at intervals, to see how quickly your postprandial BG comes down and by how much.

Oh, another reason why I think bodybuilding-style dieting is bad for this type of problem - besides high carb eating - is the insistance on eating several small meals throughout the day. While it does even out insulin spikes, you are swapping one kind of excess for another! Instead of having three huge insulin spikes, which then clear the system between meals, you have a rapid succession of smaller spikes which never quite clear the system leaving you awash with insulin for most of the day. The consequence of having insulin semi-permanently in the system is that you are more likely to develop insulin resistance/reduce insulin sensitivity. With the other method, you are likely to have reactive hypoglycaemia which leaves you feeling tired and lethargic and probaly hunting down the nearest sugary/starchy snack!

I find, with a high fat/low carb diet, that my energy levels and satiety levels are up for longer to the point where most days I only have two main meals per day and very few, if any, between meal snacks!